CCK LIVE! Today we’re talking about C&P EXAMS, which can play a critical role in your VA disability claim. Learn how to avoid common pitfalls, get a copy of your exam, and do damage control if you get unfavorable exam results. Joining us are CCK employees Robert Chisholm, Bradley Hennings, Rachel Foster, and Alyse Galoski.
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Robert: Good morning. This is Robert Chisholm from Chisholm Chisholm & Kilpatrick. Welcome, we’re going to be talking about compensation and pension exams this morning. I’m a partner in the firm and I’ve been representing veterans for over 25 years. I’m going to introduce the panel. Rachel, can you tell us about yourself and what your role is here at the firm?
Rachel: Absolutely. I’m Rachel. I have been working with CCK since 2014. I work on the agency side and I am a VA Accredited Claims Agent.
Alyse: Good morning. My name is Alyse Galoski. I’m a Court Attorney here at Chisholm Chisholm & Kilpatrick. I’ve been here for about a year and a half and I represent clients before the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims.
Brad: Hi. I’m Brad Hennings. I recently joined the firm. Prior to joining the firm, I worked as a Veterans Law Judge at the Board of Veterans’ Appeals and I’ve also worked at the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims.
Robert: Brad, you have a lot of experience in VA claims but you’ve only been with us just a few days.
Brad: Just a few days.
Robert: So welcome, and we welcome the knowledge that you bring and expertise you bring to the firm. We’re just gonna pause for a minute and let people sign in and log in to Facebook. We’ll start the program in a few minutes. I know there’s a lot of things happening in the VA world. People are concerned right now a little bit about the potential government shutdown. The VA is immune from a lot of the shutdown as I understand it, Brad. That’s been your experience?
Brad: Yes. It’s my understanding that certainly a lot of components of VA are funded for at least another month. I know, for example, a Board of Veterans’ Appeals is funded for at least another month.
Robert: For our veteran clients out there, they will continue to receive their monthly checks in the meantime.
Robert: Even though the government could potentially go into a shutdown. So I know that is a concern of folks. The other thing I want to touch on a little bit is our last conversation on Facebook Live was about RAMP, that’s the Rapid Appeals Management Program. And some veterans now may be receiving their first RAMP letter and other veterans may be receiving their second RAMP letter. Have some a little bit of updated information before we start on compensation and pension exams, about that. So far, it’s our understanding that only about 3% of the veterans have elected to go into RAMP. You can see our Facebook video about RAMP on our website www.cck-law.com. If you have any questions about that. Should we begin?
Female: Sure. I’m going to move the camera on top.
Robert: Okay. We’re going to move the camera a little bit just to get it more focused here. While that’s happening- we good? What I’d like to do is sort of an overview of what a compensation and pension exams is. Then we’ll ask some very specific questions. In the meantime, if any of you have questions about compensation and pension exams, please let us know that. So first of all, the VA has a lot of acronyms. And so a compensation and pension exam is also known as a C&P exam. But I thought it would be helpful first to talk about the overview of the elements of a claim. In order for a claim to be successful for VA disability benefits you need a couple of things. The first thing you need is a veteran to have the correct status that is generally speaking a discharge from the military that is honorable or a general discharge. Most veterans meet that requirement so that’s never an issue. Once you get over that hurdle, the next hurdle is to have an incident in service. To have a current disability. And then to have a nexus between the incident in service, a medical nexus I should say, between the incident in service and the current disability. Those are the basic overview, if you will, of VA claim for disability benefits.
Now, if you fill out an application and if you fill out a substantially complete application for benefits, that triggers something called the “duty to assist.” The duty to assist requires the VA to assist the veteran or a claimant in developing their claim. One of the critical components of any claim is a medical examination. The duty to assist requires the VA many cases to have a medical examination. That examination is what we’re going to be talking about today. In most cases that examination is the compensation and pension examination. The VA is required to provide these exams at no cost to the veteran. We’re going to now jump into a little bit about the examination. I’m going to turn to Rachel first. Rachel, you represent clients at the agency level. Many of those clients get a notice for an exam. Can you sort of walk through what they should do when they get the notice of an exam?
Rachel: Absolutely. The first thing that you want to do is respond. Some of these letters will have specific dates and some won’t. They’ll have a number for you to contact your Compensation and Pension Department, so you do want to reach out to coordinate it, reschedule it if that date is doesn’t line up, if you’re going to be out of town. But you want to communicate with the Compensation and Pension Department and set up your exam. Make sure that you are able to attend.
Robert: It’s really, really important to attend the examination.
Robert: Because in many cases, we found that if you do not attend the examination, the VA will deny the claim. I should point out that compensation and pension exams are for a number of different things. Number one, it could be for the issue of service connection. If you have a claim for service connection for post-traumatic stress disorder, the compensation and pension exam would for the service connection element. In some cases, it’s for an increased rating. So the veteran might have a 10% rating for an orthopedic condition and ask for a higher rating. They’re going to have to undergo a compensation and pension exam. What else should a veteran do besides attend and confirm with the VA?
Rachel: What we communicate to our clients is take notes on the exam on that day. Take into account if it was short, if it was brief, if you felt that you were able to kind of expand on the symptoms that you’re experiencing. If not, kind of keep that in the back of your mind. Those are just important things. Another thing to note is that when you’re going to the examination, you want to be as honest about your symptoms because you’re experiencing these on a daily basis. The VA examinations can range anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour. They may not be able to capture fully your disability and how that’s affecting you.
Robert: Do you think it’s helpful sometimes to bring a friend, a spouse, a significant other to the exams to sort of explain the symptoms that they witness the veteran experiencing? Is that something that could happen and be helpful?
Rachel: It could be helpful. Yes, I think so.
Robert: Okay. Tell us a little bit about the form that the doctors complete for these exams.
Rachel: The VA uses very heavily the Disability Benefits Questionnaire.
Robert: Just slow down. Just a little bit.
Robert: Disability Benefits Questionnaire. That sounds to me it might be like a check-off kind of thing. You check off a box, for example.
Rachel: That’s exactly what it was.
Robert: Okay. Do those provide much detail, in your experience?
Rachel: Unfortunately, no.
Robert: Okay. When one of our clients that we’re representing undergoes one of these exams, what do we do next? What’s our process?
Rachel: We check in with the client and make sure that they attended. Get any of the feedback they got. As I mentioned before, was it brief? Did you feel like you were heard? Then our next step is to get a complete copy of the examination.
Robert: And how do we do that?
Rachel: We have access to where we are able to download them fairly easy from the VBMS system. Other avenues of obtaining that examination is directly from the VA medical centers. You can often get them from there as well.
Robert: All right. For those folks of you who have undergone compensation and pension exams, you have a right to request your examination either from the medical center where it happened, where the examination took place, or directly from the VA Regional Office. We recommend that they do that, right?
Robert: Okay. Because there’s information in there that may be helpful to the veteran to understand how their claims going to be judged and decided in essence, right? Brad, you’ve had some experience reviewing compensation and pension exams as a Veterans Law Judge. If you could just sort of go through the administrative process to show where the Veterans Law Judge fits in the process. And then how you would look at and examine an exam, or analyze I should say, analyze an exam.
Brad: Sure. After a claim is filed and after a compensation and pension exam has been conducted, the Regional Office makes a decision called a rating decision. At the local Regional Office, if the veteran disagrees with that, files a Notice of Disagreement, it goes on appeal and ultimately is appealed after a Statement of the Case. And a VA Form 9 is appeal to the Board of Veterans’ Appeals, which is in Washington, D.C. That’s where the Veterans Law Judges and the attorneys that work for them review the cases. When it comes to compensation and pension examinations, what we’re looking for or what I looked for was whether it had an accurate factual history. Meaning, did the doctor ask you the right questions? Did they know what actually happened in service? Did they also get your current list of symptoms? Did they give enough detail in the report so that, as a Veterans Law Judge, I felt like I was fully informed as to the veteran’s disability?
Robert: Did you find, as a Veterans Law Judge, that the compensation and pension exams, the C&P exams, were missing information that would have been helpful to you as a judge?
Brad: Unfortunately, that was often the case. In fact, a lot of times it was missing information, either the report was too short or was incomplete, or they miss the boat on a key fact.
Robert: Okay. So if you’re reviewing a file as a Veterans Law Judge, or when you were reviewing the file as a Veterans Law Judge, and you found that the compensation and pension examination was incomplete in some way. What is the Veterans Law Judge option at that point?
Brad: The most likely thing to happen at that point if I found it to be inadequate is that I’m going to remand, or send it back to the Regional Office, for an additional examination. Hopefully, one that corrects the problems of the prior examination.
Robert: So in that scenario, the case would then go back to the Regional Office from which it came, the case would then be scheduled for an examination. And if that examination did not result in a grant, what happens then to the case?
Brad: At the point, if it did not result in a grant, it would eventually come back to the Board of Veterans’ Appeals. We’d have to review it again. If it was a hearing case, it will come back to me and then I decide whether that exam was inadequate. Unfortunately, we have many cases that go through that cycle many, many times because what comes back is still not good enough.
Robert: That’s unfortunate because then that delays the process for the veteran to get really one way or the other. Is that correct?
Brad: Substantial delay.
Robert: Okay. Does the Board have any – as a Veterans Law Judge, did you have the authority to get an exam any other way than by remanding the case?
Brad: The Board of Veterans’ Appeals does have its own independent authority to get specialized medical opinions. They’re called the “VHA Opinions” within the Board of Veterans Health Administration. The way they’re different than C&P or compensation and pension examinations is that these opinions would come from the VA system but would come from, let’s say the chief of a particular specialty at a VA medical center somewhere around the country. In addition, the Board could order independent medical examinations. They are a little bit rarer. Finally, we have specialized opinions we could get from the Air Force, Institute of Pathology, or a Toxicologist on staff. But those are very rare. However, the Board does have the authority to order any of those kinds of opinions in medically complex or difficult cases.
Robert: One other question I have before I turn to Alyse and that is, these examinations that take place, they’re not typically done by the veteran’s treating doctors. Is that correct?
Brad: That is correct. In fact, they’re typically done by an examiner who has never seen the veteran before and is not always actually a doctor. Many of them are done by non-doctors. They’re done by physician assistants or nurse practitioners, etcetera.
Robert: Isn’t it also true that they’re not necessarily done by VA employees? That is that there are third-party contractors, contractors that are hired by the VA to do these examinations.
Brad: That’s correct. In fact, a substantial number of VA examinations are in fact contracted out to third-party providers.
Robert: We’re going to move up the ladder to Alyse. Unfortunately, the Board sometimes has to deny claims. Alyse, talk a little bit first about what the role of the court is? What the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims does? Let’s talk a little bit more specifically about how one can challenge a compensation and pension examination in court, for example, if we could.
Alyse: The Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims is a court that’s in Washington, D.C. Their job is to review the decisions of the Board and ensure that the Board complied with the law and provided an adequate reasons and basis for their decision. So what happens as part of the court team is we’ll review Board decisions and see if there are any legal errors that we can challenge and appeal to the court. Specifically in this context, when we have a C&P exam that might be incomplete on inadequate, what we’ll do is we’ll look to see if the Board ensured compliance with the duty to assist. Robert, you touched on the duty to assist. The VA has a duty to ensure that they’re assisting in the development of veterans claims. And that includes using exams that are complete and adequately demonstrate the veteran’s disability picture. If they’re relying on exams that are incomplete, they’re also not complying with their duty to assist. That’s usually what we’ll argue to the court.
Robert: Are there ever cases that we challenge in court where for example, the Veteran believed they were entitled to an exam but the Regional Office and the Board denied the right to an exam. Do we challenge those?
Alyse: Absolutely. We have a lot cases that are like that where a veteran may have filed a claim and the Board or VA does not issue an exam, and therefore, they’re not getting the full disability picture by the veteran. They’re not assisting in that duty.
Robert: It’s not only the quality, if you will, of the exam.
Robert: It’s the fact that in some instances, an exam that hasn’t been completed.
Robert: And I think that’s really important, if a veteran has filed a claim and they have not had an examination yet, they should continue to insist at each step of the appeal process that they should have received an examination.
Alyse: Yes. And like you said Robert, they need to be able to show that there is a link between their service and their disability. Usually, that’s done through an exam. The VA does have a duty to ensure that there’s an exam that’s completed to establish that nexus.
Robert: Okay. Sometimes we get these negative exams. Exams that are either unfavorable to the veteran because it doesn’t support an increased rating or doesn’t support service connection for a specific condition. In those cases, some of the arguments we make would be for example, that the rationale or the explanation was inadequate, that a specific fact was inaccurate. One of my questions is, are the doctors able to make factual findings? And the specific question I have is for example, whose role is it in a post-traumatic stress disorder case to make the finding that the stressful event actually occurred? Is that a medical question or is that a factual question for either the Regional Office or the VLJ? I’m going to toss this one to you, Brad. If you can give me your thoughts on that.
Brad: In that particular instance, if it is PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder case, it’s typically the Regional Office or the Board that will make the factual determination as to the underlying stressful event. There are some exceptions to that rule as it relates to fear of hostile or military activity which is, in fact, a medical determination. It toggles between the two.
Robert: And so sometimes confusing about which role you’re trying to decide. Who is the decider, right? Who is the one that should be making the call? It’s nuanced.
Brad: It is. Often, it’s very difficult to figure out who has the ball, so to speak. As to who should be making that decision because it’s mixes the two. Unfortunately, the VA often gets that confused and makes the wrong decision.
Robert: Okay. I’m just going to interject again that this is Robert Chisholm. We’re here from the law firm of Chisholm Chisholm & Kilpatrick. You can find us at www.cck-law.com. We’re talking today about compensation and pension exams. If you have any questions please feel free to reach out to us. We’ll try and respond to your questions as best we can. One of the challenges on compensation and pension exams is the fact that they’re not all done by doctors. Is there an ability in the process for a veteran, or for veterans representative or for an attorney to get the qualifications of the individual who completed the Disability Benefits Questionnaire? I’ll start with you, Rachel, and try and get your perspective on this first.
Rachel: Absolutely. In our experience, when we get an exam that is unfavorable we always do look to the credentials of the examiner, just to make sure that the disability they’re trying to determine the severity of or making a medical opinion on, it falls within their qualifications. If there is a question of whether or not they’re qualified to make the medical opinions that they’re rendering, we will ask. We will ask the VA for their credentials.
Robert: Do they usually provide them to us?
Rachel: Not that I’ve seen. We have some difficulty.
Robert: All right. And so let’s a take case, and I’m going to toss this to Brad and then to Alyse. Let’s take a hypothetical case where we’ve received an examination that we believe is a negative examination. We’ve asked for, if you will, the resume or the curriculum vitae of the particular expert that did the compensation and pension exam, and the VA refuses to give it to us. Brad first, as a Veterans Law Judge, is that something you would notice?
Brad: That would be problematic. If I saw that there was a request for that curriculum vitae within the claims file, when it came up to me the first thing I’d say is well why wasn’t that request honored? What should happen at that point is the Veterans Law Judge should remand or send the case back to the Regional Office for them to provide that piece of information.
Robert: Alyse, let’s assumed that it wasn’t Brad deciding the case but another Veterans Law Judge did and denied the claim. Are there any options in court where we’ve specifically or a veteran specifically requested a curriculum vitae but didn’t get it?
Alyse: I’m not sure of any cases in specific that we’ve done that, but I think that could also again be another issue with the duty to assist. They’re not assisting the development of the claim. And certainly if we’re unaware of an examiner’s credentials, that’s problematic.
Robert: So I believe there is a case called Nohr. In that case the court, as you just said, said it’s really a violation of the duty to assist. The interesting thing is that if a veteran wants to challenge the credentials of the expert, they need to get that in the record before the Board decides the claim because the court says if you haven’t challenged it beforehand, it’s really hard to challenge it for the first time in court. For those of you who have examinations that are negative, make sure you put in the record that you would like the qualifications of the person. Make a specific request to the VA Regional Office or to the Board and then if ultimately the claim is denied, you would then be able to raise that issue and I think the court would grant relief in that circumstance, in most circumstances. That’s really important. Brad, how do adjudicators evaluate these claims of non-qualification? And here I’m thinking about, let’s suppose we have a resume and it’s a nurse practitioner. And let’s supposed that the veteran has provided an orthopedic examination and the issue is orthopedic. How do you weigh those as a Veterans Law Judge?
Brad: That can be very challenging. I think, the way I always approached those cases was that I would take a look at the nurse practitioner’s opinion, I’d see was it factually informed, meaning, were the facts correct? Did it make sense internally? Was it detailed? Did the examiner cite to medical evidence for their opinions? I’d look at both opinions. Now, all things being equal I’m always going to go with the orthopedic surgeon or the specialist as opposed to the nurse practitioner. That being said, I’ve had cases where an orthopedic surgeon writes a one-sentence report. That’s very unhelpful, frankly, in deciding it. Where a nurse practitioner has written 10 pages and it makes a lot of sense and vice versa. I’ve gotten it where they’re much, much better. But all things being equal, I’m going to go with the orthopedic surgeon.
Robert: And so Alyse, I know you’ve probably seen these kinds of issues arise where we do have the resume or the background of the particular C&P expert and it’s a nurse practitioner versus our orthopedic expert and you have to make arguments in court as between the experts.
Alyse: One of the things the Board has to do for the Board to issue an adequate decision is they need to provide adequate reasons and bases for determining that one exam is more probative than another exam. So if the Board does decide that a nurse practitioner’s exam is more probative than an orthopedic surgeon’s exam without any real rationale for that conclusion, then that’s problematic. That doesn’t help the veteran understand a precise basis for their decision.
Robert: Now, I’d like to switch a little bit and say the veteran is going to the examination. They get a copy of the examination and they realize that it’s not going to be a helpful examination. They’re still at the agency level. Rachel, can you sort of talk about what are the veteran’s options at that point?
Rachel: One of the things, once you review the exam and you notice inconsistencies-
Robert: And when you mean inconsistencies, can you be a little more specific? What does that mean?
Rachel: If the examiner is saying you don’t have a diagnosis of something, for example, major depressive disorder or an orthopedic condition, and you are actively treating and you have whether it be a private or through the VA Health Administration, and you have evidence of that disability, that diagnosis, and that treatment. Adding that with evidence into the file will be very helpful. Another example of evidence that you can introduce are lay statements. As we mentioned earlier, those survey-based examinations, unfortunately, do not capture the full disability picture. Having statements from friends, yourself, family members, talking about how your symptoms, how your disability affects you on a day-to-day basis, how they affect your ability to go about your daily routine. Even the fluctuations and severity that you’re experiencing. Especially from family members and friends, when they’re directly able to observe those symptoms and they can attest to that, that’s very helpful evidence as well.
Robert: And any challenges that one has with employment, how the disability impacts their employment is very, very important. Even other than an expert, that says from a supervisor, the owner of a company saying the challenges that the particular veteran has, how the disability impacts their work. That’s one thing we can do. What else do we do?
Rachel: One thing that we do is we would get our own medical opinion. Will it be from someone who specializes in the area that the veteran is seeking benefits for, someone to review their entire file and conduct a thorough assessment and provide the medical opinion needed for their case.
Robert: So Brad, in a situation where you’re reviewing a file as a Veterans Law Judge and you see a compensation and pension exam that you think is inadequate. But then, it’s an orthopedic issue and the veteran has supplied an orthopedic examination where the doctor reviewed the record. Are you able to use that in that circumstance to potentially grant the claim?
Brad: Absolutely. In fact, I would have welcomed that kind of evidence because if it’s adequate, it doesn’t matter whether it comes from VA or a private source provided by the veteran himself. As long as I’m fully informed, I’m happy to then take that, rely upon it, and grant the benefits the veteran deserves.
Robert: There is a specific statute or a regulation that says that you, and I don’t mean you specifically, the VA can rely on a private examination.
Brad: Yes, absolutely. I think there’s a myth out there that VA can only rely upon VA records or VA examinations and that often seems to be the case at the VA Regional Offices. But that’s not the law. The law says that decision makers or adjudicators throughout the entire system at VA are to rely upon all the evidence that’s in the file.
Robert: So Brad, I’m going to ask you to put your hat on as to when you clerked at the court. We hadn’t really touched on this. Alyse talked about the kinds of arguments that our law firm makes, but how did the judges look at these medical questions when they’re presented in a brief, in general terms?
Brad: I think the overarching concern that a lot of the judges at the court have is to ensure that the agency is meeting the duty to assist, that they’re trying to hold the agency accountable to make sure they’re helping the veterans. On a more detailed level, when you get into the actual examinations and opinions, they’re looking at things like was this the proper type of examiner? Did we give a physician assistant to decide a very complex neurological case, for example. Is that appropriate? Are they using or employing sound medical principles? Do you they have the facts right? Did they provide them an examination opinion at all? I think the court is really looking very careful at all of those things because from their perspective the VA compensation and pension examinations are often the most important piece of evidence in a veteran’s claim.
Robert: In fact, it’s probably fair to say that without an examination or some kind of medical evidence supporting the specific issue, it really can’t be granted.
Brad: It’s very, very challenging to grant based upon solely what we call lay evidence, or non-medical evidence.
Robert: Medical evidence is really very key to this whole process. Again, this is Robert Chisholm from Chisholm Chisholm & Kilpatrick. We’re talking today about compensation and pension exams. And again we’d like to invite any questions you have regarding compensation and pension exams and we will answer them. I don’t think we’ve gotten any questions so far but that’s great. And so, I guess the other question I have is, and Rachel you hit on this a little bit. What can a veteran do if they get a negative exam? You talked about the lay evidence. Can the veteran go to the treating doctor at the VA or to a private treating doctor where they treat and ask them to submit evidence?
Rachel: Yes. I believe the Disability Benefits Questionnaires, they’re right on the VA website. Most of them you can search, you can download. You can bring them directly to your private treating or if you treat with someone at the VAMC, you can ask them that they would be willing to fill that out for you on your behalf.
Robert: The latter point I think is really important. You can get copies of these exams, blank ones, bring them to your doctor. In fact, bring them to your VA treating doctor and they can complete them. But our experience is that not every VA treating doctor wants to complete these.
Robert: We really don’t have a mechanism to sort of force them to do that. They’re either going to do that or they’re not going to do that but it can’t hurt to ask. I think it’s important to ask specifically where there’s a negative exam, for example. If there are no questions and it doesn’t look like there are any questions, I’m going to sort of toss it out for last thoughts for each one of you. If you have any other thoughts that you want to bring up or talk about. Certainly willing to do that.
Alyse: I think the biggest thing with the C&P exams are the purpose is to get an adequate picture of your disability. If they don’t do that, that means the exam is either incomplete or inadequate. As far as the court side goes, we look to that and if the Board relies on that then the VA is not complying with their duty to assist. And that is an appealable issue in the court.
Brad: I just like to add about the treating physician that we were just talking about. That that can be extremely helpful to the decision makers. Although there’s no rule that says the decision makers have to favor a treating physician, I think that the argument can be made that a treating physician will know the veteran, will know the veteran’s history better, will have a much better picture of the veteran’s disability situation than a compensation and pension examiner who has perhaps examined them for 10 minutes. That’s again, I want to make a plug for a good treating physician’s report.
Alyse: And the case law actually supports that idea that just reviewing your claims filed does not make VA examiner more knowledgeable about your claim. Especially when you have a private physician who has been treating you consistently for a while.
Robert: My final thoughts would be this, first when you get the exam, please be sure to attend the exam. Because you are almost guarantee to be denied if you do not attend the examination. Sometimes, the VA miscommunicates by sending the notice of the exam to a prior address. If you learn that your exam was scheduled and you are unable to attend because they didn’t send it to the correct address get on the horn, call them, and get it rescheduled. If they don’t reschedule it, please make sure you send a letter to the VA saying, “I want to attend the exam. You sent it to the wrong address.” Or “I couldn’t attend on this date, please reschedule it.” Keep papering the file to make it known that you want to attend the exam. Once you attend the exam, request a copy of the exam from both the Regional Office and the VA medical center. If the examination appears to you to be negative, that is that the claim is likely to be denied or the claim is ultimately denied, get the qualifications for that particular examiner. Keep requesting them even if they don’t turn them over at each level that you appeal. If you think that the exam is negative or the decision comes back unfavorably before the Board of Veterans’ Appeals, try and get your own doctor, your treating doctor whether it be a VA doctor as we discussed or a private doctor. Those would be my recommendations. I don’t think we have any questions. We’re going to be signing off but before we sign off again, I’d like to thank Brad, Alyse, and Rachel for joining me today. This is Robert Chisholm from Chisholm Chisholm & Kilpatrick. You can find us at www.cck-law.com. We’re going to be doing another Facebook Live in a week. A little bit earlier in the day, I think either 9:00 or 9:30. Look out on Facebook or on our website. And we’re going to be talking generally about Agent Orange. We’ll be talking about the different medical conditions for which benefits are paid for people that were exposed to Agent Orange. Please tuned in next week when we have that conversation. Thank you all.